(Question) Is the community dead?

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Offline hobold

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« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2018, 11:02:01 PM »
True, it is impossible to meet everyone's demands but we can at least try to improve the site to find solutions to make the site more pleasant for everyone.
Removal is kinda sad, as this particular thought was a valuable addition to the debate.

IMHO, and in my personal experience, online communities cannot be shaped by decree. There are roughly three ways in which a forum community tends to arrive at a somewhat stable set of customs and ... culture.

1.
A community can grow and develop on its own. That's chaotic, unpredictable, and sometimes drama can completely blow up a community (although that tends to happen before a community has settled, if at all). Surprisingly, though, more often than not, common sense and mutual respect prevail. Humans are social beings after all. The final shape of the community emerges somewhat spontaneously, and can be heavily influenced by a small number of lucky accidents, which turn into unique memes in that particular community.

2.
A community can be filtered. The founders or moderators decide which qualities "their" community is supposed to have. Then these administrators actively select who to invite and who to show the door. This usually requires a fairly homogeneous society to draw forum members from to be workable at all. Such communities can thrive, but only if the administrators are not dogmatic, but willing to learn. Otherwise people just wander off to places where they can more freely talk about the stuff they are interested in.

3.
A community can be lead purely by example. This is pretty much impossible to do on purpose. You need a (few) person(s) who: a) want that role, b) are capable of carrying that role, and c) an audience that is willing to learn from and to accept those in the lead, but does not follow blindly. It's a delicate balance. It can happen that many participants of such a community experience a phase of character growth together that will influence them heavily for the rest of their lives - leaders as well as followers, and those roles can flip naturally. Such extreme examples only really occur in times of significant societal changes, though.


The most realistic occurrence is a mix of all three: a bit of natural growth, a bit of nurturing and pruning, a bit of exemplary behaviour to learn from. None of the three styles is inherently good or bad. I think I have seen both toxic and friendly outcomes from any the three developments over the years.

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2018, 11:08:49 PM »
@hobold Brilliant!

that post was willfully redacted by author deemed inflammatory, but it's out there now  :))

I want to support Fraktalist because it's a good idea to allow him to guide the destiny of the site and I don't think "personal image threads" are conducive to the intent of the forum, we have DA FB IMGUR etc etc etc for that stuff.

we are currently looking at this very closely and I hope that the "community" will give their blessing and support.
Fragmentarium is not a toy, it is a very versatile tool that can be used to make toys ;)

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fractals/fragmentarium

Offline RedshiftRider

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« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2018, 11:16:20 PM »
@hobold Brilliant!

that post was willfully redacted by author deemed inflammatory, but it's out there now  :))
:embarrass:  My apologies, I can't see those things anymore.


Yes, thanks Hobold!

Offline mclarekin

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« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2018, 12:03:08 AM »
I have always used FF like this

for images :    Gallery - Recent Items- List all,   the personal Gallery and Sub Galleries format  always worked well, although I  just use program gallery.
for everything else:   I scan most recent posts looking for things of interest

Scanning will be made easier if it does not include image posts.  But I have no strong opinions on the matter

Spamming was probably a poor choice of words and naturally leads to emotive response


Offline ThunderboltPagoda

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« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2018, 01:04:19 AM »
Spamming was probably a poor choice of words and naturally leads to emotive response

Indeed. I'm relatively new here (three and a half months), and when I started and found the image threads, I thought they are a normal and accepted feature here. I had no idea they were "experimental" (as Fraktalist wrote in this thread) and that there were arguments about that in the past. So I posted my images almost daily without any remorse.

And I was rather surprised or even shocked to read here that this is spam for several users. I come from the Usenet (active since 1997), and I really know what a pest spam is. So that is a blow, even if I understand the reasons for that discussion.

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2018, 02:10:10 AM »
At Fraktalist's request I've just done a test of board blocking and for those who feel Image-Threads are spamming cluttering their recent topics/posts list then you have an option...

Go to ...
Profile -> Forum Profile -> Modify Profile -> Board Ignore Options
select -> Fractal Art -> Image Threads [ x ]

new posts and topics from this board (or any board you select) will never bother you again.

edit: for a dead community there sure is a lot of activity  :))
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 02:54:35 AM by 3DickUlus »

Offline xenodreambuie

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« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2018, 11:00:43 AM »
The Board Ignore Option is perfect, thanks!
Since there is already a Recent Pictures list, a Recent Picture Comments list, and no equivalent (short) Recent Topics list like the old FF had, it's only reasonable to have some way to see the full recent topics board without image threads. It's not like they're hard to find without being included there.

Offline knighty

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« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2018, 11:25:41 AM »
Quote
Is the community dead?
No! :)

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2018, 12:28:30 PM »
1.
A community can grow and develop on its own. That's chaotic, unpredictable....
which would be the obvious way for a fractal community.
then again, to get a beautiful zoom/image you need to not zoom randomly but follow some rules that you have learned over time will lead to better results.

which brings us to:
2.
A community can be filtered. The founders or moderators decide which qualities "their" community is supposed to have. Then these administrators actively select who to invite and who to show the door.
My opinion is that we do need a vision: Think about what  the perfect Fractalforums would look like. And then work towards that vision.

Regarding censorship or even showing the door to users the team "dislikes":
I sincerly hope our actions didn't give you this vibe. I strongly oppose censorship and believe that a strong community can deal with opposed opinions without problems.
(I see the current way of the world, using "no hate speech" to ban any un-welcomed opinion e.g. from the big platforms like reddit/twitter as a very bad development for the internet and free speech. Let's just be reasonable.)

3.
A community can be lead purely by example. This is pretty much impossible to do on purpose. You need a (few) person(s) who: a) want that role, b) are capable of carrying that role, and c) an audience that is willing to learn from and to accept those in the lead, but does not follow blindly.
Yep, that would be nice.


I do not see me as someone who can fulfil that lead by example role.
a) I never wanted the role of administrator but no one else was willing to take it and I believe fractalforums would have died without further action.  To be honest, I really dislike the responsibility that comes with it, having to decide stuff that often influences other peoples life more than I had thought possible.

b) I'm too much human and too biased and too busy in real life.

c) I think that only works if really everyone participates, which seems overly idealistic.
If just a few or even one don't follow, the whole system will quickly start to collapse.
And those who cause it don't even do this with bad intention and must not be blamed.
Like Thunderbolt Pagoda, they just use the structure, the blanc canvas we provide.

The most realistic occurrence is a mix of all three: a bit of natural growth, a bit of nurturing and pruning, a bit of exemplary behaviour to learn from.
That sounds like the way we are trying to go.
I hope with finding that workaround of filtering out certain boards from the feeds we are closing in on a solution.
Still testing and optimizing. We'll keep you up to date


All in all: I am very happy that this topic was started and about all the very reasonable points brought up by all of you.
 I'm actually a bit surprised how well it went, how civilized the discussion stayed. That makes me proud of our remaining community. Order out of chaos.. :)

Let's do this together and make it a place we all enjoy to stay and talk, share our passion and even find friends.  :yes:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 12:50:59 PM by Fraktalist »

Offline Softology

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« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2018, 08:42:33 PM »
At Fraktalist's request I've just done a test of board blocking and for those who feel Image-Threads are spamming cluttering their recent topics/posts list then you have an option...

Go to ...
Profile -> Forum Profile -> Modify Profile -> Board Ignore Options
select -> Fractal Art -> Image Threads [ x ]

new posts and topics from this board (or any board you select) will never bother you again.

It would be helpful to have this option without having to sign in.  Add a checkbox under the current "View the most recent posts on the forum." link at the bottom of the home page.

Add my vote that images are clutter.  For me FF has always been to hopefully see new formulas or idea, not an endless number of yet another Mandelbrot/Bulb image to skip past.  There are many other image hosts out there to handle sets of images for people who want to host galleries like Flickr, DA, etc.  A forum should be for discussions.  Images within discussions are fine if they add to the conversation.

To be able to open up the home page, check "Ignore galleries" and then click "View the most recent posts on the forum." would be the ideal scenario for me.  Not having to sign in every visit is preferable.


Offline Caleidoscope

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« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2018, 01:42:41 PM »
The galleries are an important part of attracting newbies. Then possibibly 1 in 1000 will then get interested in the maths and programming.

I agree.  The function in my humble opinion of FF is also to make fractals more known to the public.  To have a forum with just a few great fractal/math thinkers would create a sort of 'private club' nobody else care about.
I don't think that it would lead to more and 'better' members. 

I'm more of the Art but I do enjoy from time to time an interesting discussion, or just some new items, or the way you guys help each-other out.   I've learned, and learn a lot here. That is not comparable with for example DA.

Even if a lot off people don't like the images, it will still be important to attract those who know little about fractals.
But I do agree, that the main focus should be the scientific/math part of fractals, and all the lighter stuff like artistic images should be separate from that.  I would suggest a main page with two options, one images and stuff and the other 'door' everything FF stands for.   The light stuff for attracting new members, newbies in Fractal-land, and the rest on a high level. So everybody feels at home, it can be vibrant, we have to make it more vibrant, but  in a way that there is no more irritation among each-other, two side off one coin.

If that is not enough, you can always make a 'special' corner where only those with a great understanding of the math can be part in the discussion. Make it separate, for example where you can only enter when you solve a difficult question ;)   (what you consider a higher level, understanding of fractal math)

I don't mean these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_mathematics    :D    (just joking) 



Offline Sabine62

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« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2018, 02:21:14 PM »
For the most part I heartily agree, Caleidoscope!  :thumbs:

Though having the smarty-pants sitting in a little corner all by themselves brooding over the question to '42': nonono!  ;D In my ideal world they should be all over the place discussing and experimenting and sharing, bang in the middle of it all, because this is what the site is for to me!  :)

But but but maybe the other way round, something to shoot at: The Noob Corner  ;D ;D ;D Where people interested, but without knowledge yet, can come to be enlightened. Find useful links, can ask questions, etc.

I'd spend all day there!  :)) :yes:
To thine own self be true

Offline RedshiftRider

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« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2018, 02:43:14 PM »
But but but maybe the other way round, something to shoot at: The Noob Corner  ;D ;D ;D Where people interested, but without knowledge yet, can come to be enlightened. Find useful links, can ask questions, etc.

I'd spend all day there!  :)) :yes:
Yes! That sounds like a nice idea. I don't consider myself to be as smart on fractals as some of the other members but I really like to help others with the things I do know.

Offline Sabine62

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« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2018, 02:50:50 PM »
I'd come to learn and very probably will ask terribly stupid questions, so beware ;)

Offline timemit

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« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2018, 11:00:30 AM »
Can I head the table in the noobs corner ?  no sharp edges and easy wipe surfaces  :yes:

Glad a general consensus is being reached and hopefully no one feels excluded while those that have particular requirements are catered for .

As I said .. kick me when I don't get it right or I won't know.

 :peace:


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