(Question) Is the community dead?

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Offline RedshiftRider

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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 11:22:50 PM »
I don't think I have ever shared my opinion on this but in any case I'll do that now.
Yes, I would very much enjoy there to be more discussion and discovery related threads especially now that I am determined to incorporate fractals into my studies. While images are great it would be nice if the discussions between them were more visible.

Offline FractalDave

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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 11:28:19 PM »
The number of image posts is fine by me, also many on here are in fact related to the maths/programming behind them rather than just for the images sake - in fact as I recall far more on the original ff were just for the image's sake than is the case on here.
The meaning and purpose of life is to give life purpose and meaning.

Offline lycium

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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 02:16:20 AM »
Is someone forcing you to look at pauldelbrot's images?

Yes, that's almost (not "someone", but something) exactly the case I'm making; it's basically impossible to go through new posts without wading through a bajillion same-y Mandelbrots and Mandelbulbs. And so I usually don't. I alone am not a significant loss to the FF community, but apparently others also find it to be a practical issue.

To be clear, I don't always mind the images (being a graphics programmer specialising in fractals :D), but the now-image-centric nature of this "forum" detracts from discussion threads and is better suited to (as others have said) deviantArt, Mandelbulb Maniacs on FB, etc etc.

If there were a gallery-less new posts feed, I'd read it daily.

Offline gerrit

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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 02:52:49 AM »
Yes, that's almost (not "someone", but something) exactly the case I'm making; it's basically impossible to go through new posts without wading through a bajillion same-y Mandelbrots and Mandelbulbs. And so I usually don't. I alone am not a significant loss to the FF community, but apparently others also find it to be a practical issue.

To be clear, I don't always mind the images (being a graphics programmer specialising in fractals :D), but the now-image-centric nature of this "forum" detracts from discussion threads and is better suited to (as others have said) deviantArt, Mandelbulb Maniacs on FB, etc etc.

If there were a gallery-less new posts feed, I'd read it daily.

Sounds to me like you are just looking for something to complain about.
All posts are labeled by topic such as "Image threads", " Fractal Mathematics And New Theories", "Fractal Image Gallery", "Off topic" etc.

Offline lycium

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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2018, 02:57:08 AM »
lol, and people ask me why I wasn't more vocal about my opinion! :D

Nevermind, I'll stop "looking for something to complain about". Goodbye O0

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2018, 03:46:12 AM »
@lycium don't stop! progress == change and if there aren't any complaints there would be stagnation.

2 possible actions come to mind:
-deactivating auto-topic creation for gallery uploads
-stopping the image threads.
(keepinf the image of the month contest, giving it much more worth. presenting your best image monthly vs "spamming")

The downside: once we do this, it will become rather silent and activity will drop even further.

I for one highly favour to re-focus on discussion about fractals rather than showing of images.
What are your thoughts?

@Fraktalist I agree with both points, and I think spammers should be called out and held to task "show me the code" and "I'm sick of your pictures". I  too am guilty of a little spamming, but for the most part outside of the gallery any images that I post are relevant to a given topic or to illustrate some feature or to make a visual comparison between formula code results... and stuff... I have to admit that lately I've marked a lot of things as 'read' without even bothering to look because I know it's going to be some mandelbrot or lyapunov or or or... they have to be really special before I want to see yet another location I would not waste cpu cycles rendering.

This is what Sabine and I (and a few others?) are trying to do in the Fragmentarium snippets board, the criteria is "snippets" not complete frags or programs, just the bit that does the magic and the idea is to present a description of how to use it and maybe a thumbnail, definitely not an 8000x8000 pixel monster image that takes forever to load and then clutters up my local cache with something I don't want to see again.

It will take some doing and people will have to accept the criticism of being told to go to deviant art if all they want to do is post images and not much else ie: image threads should be an ongoing discussion and evolution of a formula or concept, both math and code and should not be the exclusive "property" of the creator others should be allowed to contribute to ANY thread, as long as it's on topic and progressing in a positive direction or dissecting the principals and premises to solicit better understanding.

:siren :stooges:  C:-) :horsie:

OK that's my little rant, @Fraktalist just give the word, you know how much I enjoy deleting cruft  :yes:

It has been brought to my attention that "my little rant" may be misunderstood as referring to FF users as spammers, in this context the term "spammers" is a reference to the entire internet and members of the general public that clutter our world with garbage we don't want or need, not any particular user here at FF.

My humblest apologies to anyone that may take offense but such is the nature of freedom
;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 07:34:52 AM by 3DickUlus »
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Offline quaz0r

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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2018, 08:28:23 AM »
Quote
but really it's such a pain going through Pauldebrot's spamming and truly wild conspiracy theories when he can't post an image for a whole minute or three
  :fp:  it's not exactly surprising that many here are perhaps...eccentric   ;D

really there is more than one level of image spamming: gallery posts surely should not be set up to spam the forum.  i think everyone could agree on that.  users actually spamming the gallery with lots of posts on the other hand would be a separate issue.  these users could be encouraged to post to image threads instead.  which then brings us to image threads - these seem useful, both inherently and as a way to avoid spamming the gallery.  whether or under what circumstances activity in image threads gets included in the "recent posts" section could be debated however.  for instance, perhaps included in the recent posts section could be things like thread creation and comments from other users, whereas the owner of the thread posting new images could be excluded.

while the issue of spamming, both gallery spamming and image posting in general spamming the recent posts section, is a legitimate concern, there seems to also be a sentiment from some that image posting in general should be done elsewhere.  i personally dont really agree with that sentiment; i see no reason to discourage image posting as long as it can be done in a way that doesnt interfere in other things, ie cluttering the recent posts section.  also as someone already pointed out, a lot if not most of the people who post images here are also the same people who write the code and discuss the math.  if there were a quadzillion noobs just shitting out an endless stream of noob images like there are on deviantart then the anti-images sentiment would make more sense.

Offline Sabine62

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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2018, 10:00:45 AM »
Code: [Select]
...eccentric   ;D Loves that expression, quaz0r  :)) That's really quite mad, but with Lots of money, isn't it :}

First: I would hate it if anyone would leave FF because of this discussion. All opinions are valuable, and of course people will disagree or agree, that's part of the game. Please do not let that stop you participating or voicing your ideas!

For clarity: I do not mind the Gallery, I like it, I do not feel it is spammed since 'spamming' there is for a big part subjective anyway  ;) , and as far as I am concerned people can do there what they want... as long as I can 'keep the door shut' if I want and not Have to see what's posted there in the threads. I really believe that eliminating the creating of topics when adding to the Gallery is the main solution to keeping the threads for discussions only.

No idea how personal image threads behave in  Recent Posts, ideally they should only show up if you have a Notify on it, but I think that technically that's not possible?

But how about just starting with chucking out the image threads for a month? See what happens?  :horsie:
To thine own self be true

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2018, 10:27:48 AM »
Bravo @Sabine62 (was writing this when you posted)

Currently, anyone can start a thread and post whatever they like, as much as they like, preferably "of interest" and "on topic".

I don't think there is a need for special "Image Threads", every user has a personal gallery and can post in the program specific galleries too, the image threads actually encourage the very sort of behavior that seems to really annoy some people and perhaps detracts somewhat from the original intent of the forum.

I like to share images, especially the ones that make me say "Wow!" but I'm not going to post every image I render or every day, I don't feel the need, but others might.

So how to strike an acceptable balance? discussion! that's what a forum is about isn't it? So pull the plug on the P.C. filters and lets hammer it out with a bit of discourse and hopefully some decorum.

If only 5 people (or so, pick any small number) want something should it be imposed on all members just to keep the minority happy? Image threads be discontinued as a "feature" I say and no longer promoted, rather "of interest" and "on topic" should be encouraged.

...excuse me, my render just finished and I have to post another image...

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2018, 01:36:05 PM »
Well not dead, at least a dozen members had to say something here, the signup rate has fallen recently due to bots getting caught (the spammers of real concern) and rejected and after looking at some of the image threads they do, for the most part, follow the intended purpose with code and examples and as long as only a few find it bothersome then I'm ok with leaving them as is but maybe just turning off the auto thread creation and let people create one if they need to.

Offline timemit

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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2018, 05:34:55 PM »
It isn't dead and  obviously not dying perhaps just become a slightly different organism.  I think the forum should serve those that use it for the things it does best, bringing people together, sharing ideas , knowledge, skills , techniques and discoveries.
I said at the beginning of the new forum I would try and be more involved in what little way I can and I have as much as I can input time. I feel I take far more than I return and am very grateful to be involved and included. My abilities in anything other than twiddling buttons is minimal but sometimes my twiddling finds interesting things I'm always happy to share anything that piques members interests.
I've tried to not spam at all ( many gigabytes of unpublished images sit in my drives ) , posting only things that are new or that i though unusual and am very happy to be told off and/or corrected if my forum use or protocol is wrong, in fact please do poke me if i'm being stupid . I know I tend to go off topic and don't always get things, I have a pretty random mind.
For me it is all a matter of time, I hope to be using the forum and playing with fractals for many more years and at the moment life pressures don't give me time to learn what I would like to so I can be more involved with the code/maths side of things, thankfully I get to nosy in on others conversations and grab understanding from those dialogs at least in conceptual ways.
I do agree with that innumerable variants of similar places tend to get a bit boring ( but one mans seahorse valley is another mans nightmare ravine )   and if it affects the running/cost of the site then the  imagespam could be curtailed somewhat.
I came here to learn and share, hope that can continue but equally happy to just watch others do great stuff . O0

Offline FractalDave

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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2018, 08:06:57 PM »
lol, and people ask me why I wasn't more vocal about my opinion! :D

Nevermind, I'll stop "looking for something to complain about". Goodbye O0

What if the Mandelbulb had only been posted as the hard math ? Or the Mandelbrot just described in words ?
Again in terms of individual posts the number of "just an image" posts was far more on the old ff !!

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2018, 10:10:29 PM »
First of all, sorry that I introduced the term "spamming" - we should not label contributing users who use the platform (with all the options) we provide spammers. No matter if we like the content or don't.
I actually think Pauldelbrots images are among the best fractal images online.

The way our system currently keeps images in focus has developed into a problem.
The more you post, the more visibility you gain.

I kind of accepted that this is consensus and wanted by the community.
Countless arguments with Sockratease when we set up ff.org made me believe that.

I am very happy that this is not the case!


gallery posts surely should not be set up to spam the forum.  i think everyone could agree on that.

I think we do agree and just had the pleasure of finally removing that annoying functionality after years of waiting for that moment. Thank you. Made my day ;)


From now on, images posted in the gallery will no longer automatically generate a thread in the forum.



Regarding image threads:
Well, I dug that hole myself.  ::)
Because I "wasn't allowed" to remove those autothreads, I thought it would be a good idea to at least bundle those countless threads with no replies into long single threads.
I didnt' think that they would be used so intensively that some always float on top, and I also thought every user would at max use 1-2 of those.
So that backfired into having 2 sources of image"over-representation" compared to discussion topics.

With autothreads removed, the reason that led to the implementation of image-threads has now gone. So.. they could go too.

But how about just starting with chucking out the image threads for a month? See what happens?  :horsie:
It's quite a step, but tbh I prefer this approach over slowly testing small changes.
Let's see how it works out by keeping them in the forum main page, but locking the boards so no new content can be added.
So no ones work that went into creating an image thread is wiped out, that would be very unfair. The old threads can still be watched, but will no longer be present in recent topics/unread posts.

If there is huge outrage (by more than 2-3 people) it will be just a few clicks to unlock everything.
So let's do this as a little experiment.

The Imagethread-Board is now set to "read only" (temporarily) to see how it will be accepted

I'll post an announcement about this soon.

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2018, 10:35:04 PM »
What if the Mandelbulb had only been posted as the hard math ? Or the Mandelbrot just described in words ?
Again in terms of individual posts the number of "just an image" posts was far more on the old ff !!

I understand your point.
But: We are not talking about not allowing images at all.
 
1.The gallery remains untouched and all the features you know and love from forum threads are also part of the gallery. It was redundant. It was redundant.
-You can post as many images there as you like. You can add a long description, share the technique you used..
-Other users can comment the images directly in the gallery and you will get a notification about those comments by mail if wanted.
-Users can rate the images.
-You can see all new/recent/unviewed images by clicking on "unviewed images" in our 2nd button row (below forum title on ALL pages - though I think this is just if you use our default yorky theme)┤
Alternatively you can see all recent gallery images if you scroll to the bottom on the home page.


2. You've come up with a new formula? You want to share a discovery you made, an extraordinary location in the mset, whatever, anything you think is actually worth people looking at (beyond "daily art" which goes into the gallery)
Share it!! Please do! This is what the forum should be all about. And share it with as many attached images as you like. A good image speaks more than thousand words.
If someone starts to miss-use this repeatedly, we will kindly ask to stop and use the gallery instead. I am confident that people will understand and there will be not much trouble. We will not be strict or intimidate anyone but encourage people to share stuff that is worth sharing.
It's just about removing redundancy.




These changes touch other subjects too, like what about the whole "fractal art" section in the forum index?
An idea would be to move it into an "archive" section, read only.
Then, what about the movie section? Movies are far less common(less "spammy" and the gallery can't host them. So those should stay imho.

Also, if you guys n gals have ideas for new categories that would make sense with all these changes, please share them.
We are flexible and open to new ideas! Coming up with a simple uncluttered forum structure was one of the hardest things when creating ff.org
Let's keep it uncluttered, but if a new category actually enriches the experience, we can set it up in a few minutes.


While we're at it - anything else? Any complaints? Any ideas? What do you like a lot about ff, what can we improve? what do you dislike, what should we get rid off?

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2018, 11:03:04 PM »
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