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Offline justintimmer

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The fractal experience
« on: September 15, 2017, 11:20:11 AM »
Hey guys,

I have a thing that I have a hard time to express the thoughts in my mind regarding to fractals and stuff. For example, when I talk about things like fractals, spirals, infinity, and the everything I somehow feel them. If I am in "good" state I somehow feel the forces of a spiral, I feel the infinity of a fractal, and I sort of feel the notion of "everything that exists". I sometimes have a hard time with the fact that people just see these words (like spirals, fractals, everything) as quite common things and don't care about them that much. So I just can't express these experiences to these people. It just feels kind of stupid that I can amazed with the fact that everything exists because they exist, they just do.

In that sense, being amazed with "the existence of the existence", being amazed by the "infinity of the infinity", or by the "fractal structure of a fractal" I feel that I am iterating myself to infinity. My theory is, that this phenomenon is a "fractal experience". Because every time I iterate a thought/experience these experiences become stronger with every second I think about them. The intensity of these experiences depend on the iterations I can make in my mind without being interrupted by other thoughts. With fractals and spirals it is not a problem at all to iterate them many times before they are interrupted.

Within myself I have no problem with this and I experience these iterations as pure beauty. Nevertheless, when I talk to people they have a hard time grasping this. These feelings occur not that often in daily life and I don't have a big problem with them. But I thought there might be like-minded people on this forum so this would be the time to bring it up. I would love to hear from you whether you experience the same kind of things or not at all. Thanks!
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Offline Fraktalist

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2017, 04:14:17 PM »
Great post. Thanks for sharing your experience.

It is self similar to mine. And to that of quite a few other fractal philosophers/researchers/cosmologists - whatever you want to call us..
We know how hard it is to explain these things to others. We all face this. Most people simply don't care.
Maybe you can compare it to a quantum physicist trying to delight everyone around him with how important and essential quantum physics are. They are without a doubt - but that's not important to live your life.
Or approached philosophically, it can be perceived similar to a religious fanatic, trying to spread his way of looking at the world to everyone else.
Everyone has built his own view on the world. Who has the right to question your decisions, dispute the fundament your worldview is based upon? Would you accept people doing this to you? I usually don't..

Even though fractals are less complicated to understand than quantum physics, they face a similar problem. There is no easy way in. There is no 2-3 sentences explaining this concept that permiates our cosmos. I've tried often, but I still fail - especially with those someone who lack any prior knowledge.
It is hard to awaken curiosity in a short dialog, if you have to explain the topic for 10 minutes first.

Even here at fractalforums you will find this.
And that is okay. Not everyone needs this in life.

It helps me personally a lot - realizing the fractalness of the cosmos was one of the most important things that happened in my life.
It took me a long time to come to that point. It wouldn't have helped if someone had just told me: "look around man, everything is fractal!!" - yeahj, whatever dude!
After all, this is something everybody has to find out for himself. If it comes as dogma from above, it means nothing. If you realize these things, find them out for yourself, that is incredibly powerful and lifechanging.

After many failed attempts of explaining the fractal philosophy I learned to not bother people around me with it. Dropping a hint at what you are passionate about is ok of course. Those interested will ask if they want to know more. Help those, give them some waypoints how to continue their journey.. talk with them.

(We are working on a new youtube channel that tries to explain things easy and understandable for people with no prior knowledge. I hope to finally have the first 5 videos ready in the next 1-2 months. )

Regarding real-life interactions in your social circle, it can become very lonely once you go fractal.
The best solution is to just connect with people who experience the same.
So welcome again! :)

The next problem seems to be, that fractals are not really accepted or given a lot of attention. They are a sidefact, trippy images, at best popping up in some study results here and there. I love this example. "Hey we simulated the cosmos using the ...pages of details.....
...By the way, the result was a spongle like fractal structure that matches with our observations. blabla..."

You don't even find that little insignificant detail in the english wikipedia entry.
Examples of the ignorance towards fractals are everywhere.
This is why the fractal.institute was started - to collect all the examples of fractals. You can't complete a jigsaw puzzle and see the whole image, if you don't have all your puzzle pieces collected and properly sorted.

I wanted to write more, but have to fetch the kids from kindergarten now, I'll get back to this probably.
But I'll post this, which was my first thought after reading:

Offline justintimmer

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 05:47:11 PM »
Frank, thank you very much for your elaborate answer! It is very helpful. A year ago I wasn't aware of any fractal and might not have cared about them as well (I think). That is a good reminder, thanks. The best way for people to change behavior, is for them to change it autonomously without to much (obvious) help.

I have many of things in my mind which I know are connected through fractals. However, making one clear story to explain everything is always a struggle. Nevertheless, I can use some (the properties of) fractals silently during conversations which is quite satisfying. Tying all the knots together and make one good story (about everything) is something I hope to achieve through this forum with many like-minded people. Also, I am very curious about your video's!

Awesome example about the Wikipedia-page! Ignoring the obvious is something which I also noticed over time. Sometimes I believe that fractals are so obvious, that they become ambiguous to people.

Initiating the Fractal Institute is a great step! I am a researcher and would love to zoom fully into the fractal as a fractal-researcher one day.

Yugen, what a great word.


P.S.: If you have more (un)related things to post here, I would love to hear them.

Offline Fraktalist

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2017, 10:58:05 PM »
I share these moments of pure awe. It's just amazing to see this 'hidden dimension' that is in plain view yet unnoticed.
And realizing how omnipresent it is. Just like you say, this isn't a part of everyday life, it doesn't happen often.
But when it does, you just have to ask:

Why are there these fractal patterns hidden in every aspect of nature, life, the cosmos?

What causes this?

What does it mean?

These seem so important questions with potentally paradigm-shifting implications!
I simply can't understand how there are branches of science for every little sub-sub-topic but no focussed research on fractals.
Of course there are fields like chaos theory, emergence, systems theory... but (imho) those are specialized more on the details than the big picture.

The problem might be that fractals are as interdisciplinary as it gets. Because they are everywhere.
Everyone today needs to specialize more and more to discover something new.
One could say: The tips of the (coincidentally fractally) branching tree of science are so tiny and many, 'so deeply zoomed in', there's only detail left, a micro view.

A specialized researcher finds a fractal pattern - many probably don't even notice, because they are not aware of fractals.
Of course to him this just appears as another sidefact among so many things regarding his field of expertise.

Only when you stop focussing and instead mix all those fractal facts into one big picture it becomes obvious.

But who does this?
There are more people than you'd think who somehow know or feel this... what can you even call it? fractalness?
They realized through personal experience, thinking, learning.
But few "do anything" about it. Because, what is there to do? What couldyou do?
Recognizing fractals doesn't really matter in everyday life. (Though the change in perspective can be profound)
Most I've talked to are rarely researchers but have a different background, lead a "normal" life.
Who has time for this? And to do exactly what again?
Who are you going to talk to?

People coming from outside the scientific community are not taken very seriously.
For good reason. Climate research is a sad example.

So to recap:
If you are making a living as researcher, it is likely you are already deep in the micro-view and won't pay too much attention on fractals.

And if you have somehow developed the 'macro-view', you are probably not part of the scientific community.

This divide, this defense mechanism could be the cause for the current stillstand in fractal science.

At least that is one train of thoughts I had. What do I know.. ? ;)

Oh well.. It's back to Awe for me.. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 11:08:23 PM by Frank Fraktalist »

Offline justintimmer

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 04:03:27 PM »
About specializing science:
Yes, this is indeed a problem in science. I see every scientist (including me) specializing in their topic what makes their topic number 1 priority in the world (according to them). Governments should be the ones who can shift easily through the dimensions of every fractal (specialization). Being able to shift your perspective easily (from broad to zoom) is an important skill, what governments should be able to. And governments have power (but are quite hard to reach).

About opportunities science:
Well, I think there is room on so many levels through all the specializations. Seeing fractal structures in astronomy, businesses, buildings, nature, and behavior is one thing. But you are right, these encounters are always from a perspective within this specialized area, thus they recognize fractals as an artifact. However, if people start to get encounter fractals in their own field, they should become interested in the connection of fractals if they become aware of their occurrences in other fields. Nevertheless, we should somehow show there is a connection. This would be a good step.

An initiative like the Fractal Institute is great. Because I believe there is a lot to do. A comprehensive review of where fractals occur is the first one. Defining what a fractal is (in its broadest sense), and simply collecting everything and everyone.

Also, books:
I can see several self-help, organisational/business books being written from a fractal-perspective. Also something what could be done.

Offline Sabine62

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 08:19:32 PM »
Thank you both for this great thread, Justin and Frank.
I am the "unscientific outsider no one takes notice of, and rightly so" up here  :D , but I am well aware of these moments of awe when I look around me and it hits me: clouds, trees, the stars, galaxies, the way the sand is shaped by the tide. I see images of the aurora on tv and hear a scientist say: we have no idea why it behaves like it behaves and looks how it looks, and I think: "hey, I could think of something... I wonder if someone studying them has looked at fractal flame... ", nice albeit na´ve thoughts like that ;}

Fractals are everywhere I can see, and though my horizon surely does not encompass a true understanding of chaos theory, self-organisation and the lot, I can be in a state of awe when I 'walk' through a 3D-fractal with a program, when a slight move of some slider that basically does nothing more than add a few hundredth of a mm or degree to a formula and can change the entire scenery that is built. That is like walking through a holy place almost, and I certainly am not the religious kind;)

Why fractals are everywhere? Hm, I Love this fun theory that we are all just part of a simulation program that's built by someone to see what happens if. Would explain a lot of weird stuff happening: "Daddy, can't you install a really weird new prez for that big country over there?"

And then, are fractals 'everywhere' or is my fractal brain just programmed to see them all around me and recognize them? :} But knowing to be surrounded by them in the broadest sense and on every level of magnitude and realising that I am very probably built of them myself entirely or for a great deal, makes those moments of realisation an experience of immense 'connectedness' if that were a word;)

And maybe all this does not make sense, I really have a hard time explaining, at least I am sure of that  :))
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 10:24:31 AM by Sabine62 »
It's just a jump to the left...

Offline justintimmer

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 05:53:08 PM »
Thanks Sabine for your response!

You are right, it is crazy sometimes how complex things seem so simple which almost must be a naive thought. I am intending to just contact people like scientist and bluntly propose what I am thinking. I know that (some) scientists appreciate it if you show interest in their work. However, you don't want to appear as some weirdo with crazy theories. So having a good story will help, But you can also propose your thoughts through using a pseudonym if you don't want to damage your reputation. Haha, haven't done some actual work though.

I love the simulation thought, games like No Man Sky or SpaceEngine just amaze me. You all most know this video?

And same thing here Sabine, it is very difficult to explain myself, :p

Offline Sabine62

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 11:26:20 AM »
Yep, saw that video :)

If you like to read more on the simulation theory in this really great article on the BBC-website: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160901-we-might-live-in-a-computer-program-but-it-may-not-matter
...and incidentally there's an image of a fractal flame in it...

Offline Fraktalist

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 03:42:00 PM »
@all: I moved user "v"s answer here https://fractalforums.org/fractal-philosophy/23/fractals-in-radar/372/msg1824
it matched good here. but also was a great link to fractals in physics/radar technology and the fractal.institute board is supposed to collect all these links.
v, I hope you don't mind (i could merge it back if you do)

yes, they do have power to direct funds to whatever research-area they think is worthy and that might bring good results (that will tuirn into profit in the long run)
But they need input. And input from a few fractal fanatics with little backup from the scientific community is not the kind of input they are interested in.
So this only adds to the vicous circle.

the thing with "could be done" is exactly this - it could. but it isn't done. It is so frustrating to see the ignorance. And I just don't get it - there are so many chances to make huge discoveries, I don't think there are many other sciences in which the potential for paradigm shifting discoveries are so common. The biggest one would be bringing all those pieces together and form one big fractal theory.
Fractal institute is a step in the right direction, but we lack the support and manpower to really get things done.
So if you want to actively participate, please let me know! (we need help in many areas, currently mostly finishing the new websites, writing encyclopedia articles, support spreading the word, reaching out to specialists)

On simulation hypothesis:  --I was about to delete that text again, as it leads nowhere, but what the heck... ;) going totally offtopic..
Justin, Sabine, should we split this topic into fractal experience and a new one "simulation hypothesis from a fractal perspective"?

I don't agree with that view. It's a nice idea, but the point that we can hardly ever prove it bugs me a lot. Also - very fractal - if the probability is so high that we are a simulation of some "higher beings", where does it start? isn't it very similarly probably that those higher beings are simulated as well by even higher beings? and so on..
I find it as interesting and nice as I think it is pointless to discuss this probability.
Maybe we should start another topic on this - I could go very much into the details of why and how some arguments in that bbc article are completely missing the point - if seen fractal.
In (extremely) short, I personally think it is the universe itself that is calculating itself. It is an interconnected network of input & output. On the most basic level each fundamental particle is a little formula, given an input it will react with a certain output (nicely visualized with feynman diagrams). Over time (which is basically nothing but adding iterations) this interaction leads to complexity. Everything unstable will be gone, everything stable will stay. So of course everything there is, is and everything that can't be is not. In a zoom into the mandelbrot set you have a basic formula, creating patterns of growing complexity - but not everywhere. theres also a lot of emptiness where nothing happens at all. and it's expanding.
This point from the BBC article makes little sense with this in mind:
"The constants of nature, such as the strengths of the fundamental forces, have values that look fine-tuned to make life possible. Even small alterations would mean that atoms were no longer stable, or that stars could not form. Why this is so is one of the deepest mysteries in cosmology."

Think bifurcation diagram.

oh well.. I'm far out and wonder if anyone can follow my extremely shortened trains of thought. I could go on about any small detail of this endlessly.

Interesting thread http://www.fractalforums.com/fractals-in-nature/resolution-of-the-universe/msg84110/#msg84110

As you two already said, yes, very hard to explain.
And if you want to view and explain the simulation hypothesis from the fractal perspective, then the reader needs to actually understand that perspective.
And there's that big problem again.
I spent at least 4 years thinking about this and over time I slowly constructed a personal fractal world-view.
But it still takes effort to completely get into that mindset, even though I spent so much time on it.
Explaining this to outsiders - even to fellow fractalists is extremely hard. I noticed in your first post, Justin, we talk about the same things, but use different words for the same thing. It can be hard to understand even for us "insiders" to understand what the other is talking about. Even though it is the very same concept.

Offline Fraktalist

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 03:52:30 PM »
And then, are fractals 'everywhere' or is my fractal brain just programmed to see them all around me and recognize them? :} But knowing to be surrounded by them in the broadest sense and on every level of magnitude and realising that I am very probably built of them myself entirely or for a great deal, makes those moments of realisation an experience of immense 'connectedness' if that were a word;)

And maybe all this does not make sense, I really have a hard time explaining, at least I am sure of that  :))

you are not far out there sabine.
one of the main feature of my favourit fractal the mandelbrot set is its connectedness. each point is connected through that infinite line that the border itself is.
so it totally makes sense to feel a fractal connectedness in our cosmos. I share that - and so many spiritual (not exclusively religious) people do too.
but not only spiritual - tv tip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)
we are connected to our direct surroundings, on multiple social levels (families, cities, countries, continents, humanity) but also physical, food(which is basically converted sunlight, energy from our star, to which we are also connected gravitationally, just as the sun is to the milkyway-->local group-->virgo cluster-->laniakea...
atoms connect to complex molecules, complex molecules-->cells-->..-->humans-->humanity connected through internet to one huge "global brain"...
and the relation between each of those connections is always very very similar, but on a different scale. fractal.

you can play this nice fractal game in so many areas, it is mindblowing.

I've had this fear of my mind seeing connections where there are none, faces in clouds, parodeilia.
And this made me research examples. And there are just too many everywhere.
I am generally interested and open - if any other topic would be similarly omnipresent but with so many open questions, I'd jump on that. but nothing comes even close to fractal patterns in our cosmos.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 04:04:25 PM by Frank Fraktalist »

Offline Sabine62

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 04:26:31 PM »
The simulation-theory: Not a topic desperately needing to be started, I think;)
For me it's just a fun idea to play with in my mind when I am bored. I must say though that your bifurcation-diagram (with Lots of nothings happening ;}) is an eye-opener when it comes to explain Life, the Universe and Everything (and fractals!) :) And I do agree on expecting the universe to calculate=build itself from tiny instructions.
I just love theories like that which challenge how I view my existence and experiences, and besides it's always very relieving not take life and its complications too serious for a bit ;)

Trying to explain the fractal nature of our 'world'? That is quite an undertaking, Frank! I wish I had your determination. I'll have to leave the serious theorising to the great and beautiful minds out there, I certainly miss the drive and capacities for it. So, I for myself am happy to swoon over any new application for fractals or new fractal structures found in unexpected places I read about and then secretly think to myself: "See, toldya! Fractals!" ;}

Connectedness... I really never heard of it! How interesting that it exists and is applicable here :)
I think I would have greatly enjoyed that tv-series, too!

As to the parodeilia: If there's one thing we can be certain of then it's that we can't always trust our brains :}

Getting scientists to take fractals (much more) into account: That is probably a revolution that will have to start from within...

read much of the text inthe  link to the FF ver1-discussion. Very interesting, very entertaining, even with my limited understanding of the underlying physics. A great playground, and we need those so much :)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 05:39:45 PM by Sabine62 »

Offline justintimmer

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 05:24:10 PM »
Wow Frank,

You shatter my mind everytime with new information and sources. Some of them are hard to grasp for me but they all make very much sense. I love the bifurcation diagram. I have been looking a while for a visual connection between fractals and waves, I am sure there was one, but this is good visual one. Do you have any more thoughts about connection fractals with waves? I am not sure if this is still on-topic however.

About the connections:
How much are these forms of connections (like house -> neighbourhood -> village -> city etc.)still fractal? I think they are still within my definition of fractals. But I am not sure if everyone agree's to me with this.

Offline Fraktalist

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 10:46:44 PM »
And I haven't even started ;)

everything is on topic with fractals  ;D

hm. a few thoughts on waves.
(let's go with ocean waves, lightwaves are much harder)
obligatory disclaimer: I am no expert on waves, this is as far as I understand, mixed with my fractal perspective.

waves are basicaly movement of energy. wind blows on a calm water plane transferring it's energy creating ripples.
wind keeps blowing and each ripple has a larger 'attack surface' so even more energy will be added to each. this adds up leading to larger and larger waves carrying more and more energy. it is a recursive feedback process.
The energy gets transfered from one molecule to molecule in water by a circular motion. each particle stays basically in the same place. so each particle has input and output that is fed back into each other. so again, a recursive process. (which is a basic feature of fractals).

then there is the fact that waves are scaleable. maybe not infinetely, but over manymany scales.
the more energy you put into, the higher a wave becomes. (of course this is closely related with the shape of a beach/open ocean, but you get the idea).

so you have a scale free thing that is caused by a recursive process. for my personal checklist, that is enough to make it fractal.
each wave itself might not be fractal but looking at the whole concept of waves they are.
same for dunes and different kinds of erosion.

about the connections
like house -> neighbourhood -> village -> city etc.)
the following is just a rough conept of mine.
look at the different input output patterns with these "parameters":
needs, resources, waste, finances, diplomatic status, partnerships, emnities, plans.
on each level these patterns and networks between communities exist. this was probably better observable in ancient times (tha majority of human history, compared to  industrial times)
you have needs on each level, and evereyone else on that level fulfils it.
family(smith) needs food, other families(peasant) supply in exchange.
city A (low food production) needs food, city B (high food production) sells it.
country A needs coal, country B supplies.
you have special friends in your neighbourhood. a city often has tight  partnerships with cities nearby. a country is allied with another country.
every entity encounters similar patterns on it's scale level. each of our youths are self-similar (but never 100%identical) to the youth of each other human. each human as much as each city is going through birth, adolescence, maturity, old age, death..

the layout of government, small villages have a small council(only know this for germany), these group together with other small towns in a city council. these cities group together in counties. and counties group together in states. and states group together into a country. and countries group together into unions. and... well the resolution ends at humanity currently. let's see what star trek brings.. ;)

scaling of city size (=human communities) follows a power law, better explained here:
living cities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0XNG7530ls&index=19&list=PLuBeCwzDtE8JltcK9AADCbgGy1-BiB1Kv  (german)
same scientist, english ted talk I haven't watched yet: https://www.ted.com/talks/geoffrey_west_the_surprising_math_of_cities_and_corporations

there's many way you can play this game of finding fractals and scaling patterns.
another nice connection is over the time axis- repeating patterns everywhere

simulation hypothesis:
here's something I just came across, regarding the simulation hypothesis, new findings hint that it's impossible that we are a simulation:
A team of theoretical physicists from Oxford University in the UK has shown that life and reality cannot be merely simulations generated by a massive extraterrestrial computer. The finding -- an unexpectedly definite one -- arose from the discovery of a novel link between gravitational anomalies and computational complexity. In a paper published in the journal Science Advances, Zohar Ringel and Dmitry Kovrizhi show that constructing a computer simulation of a particular quantum phenomenon that occurs in metals is impossible -- not just practically, but in principle. The pair initially set out to see whether it was possible to use a technique known as quantum Monte Carlo to study the quantum Hall effect -- a phenomenon in physical systems that exhibit strong magnetic fields and very low temperatures, and manifests as an energy current that runs across the temperature gradient. The phenomenon indicates an anomaly in the underlying space-time geometry. [...] They discovered that the complexity of the simulation increased exponentially with the number of particles being simulated. If the complexity grew linearly with the number of particles being simulated, then doubling the number of partices would mean doubling the computing power required. If, however, the complexity grows on an exponential scale -- where the amount of computing power has to double every time a single particle is added -- then the task quickly becomes impossible.

here's the full paper:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 11:19:11 PM by Frank Fraktalist »

Offline justintimmer

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 05:15:19 PM »
Frank, thanks for your perspective on waves. I am still thinking whether waves, fractals, or 0&1's are the base of the universe. I guess your comment made one point for fractals.

I like to view these phenomena as fractal as well indeed, the things we deal with everyday are very different across people, but in its structure very similar (fractal). But then, we have a structure that is fractal, but of what consists the things we deal with? Is this just matter?

P.S. thanks again for the links, I have/am watching them.

Offline wes

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Re: The fractal experience
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 06:58:52 PM »

Frank, I appreciate your posts on this thread. I've got a glass of whiskey in me, so take this with a grain of salt, but I only recently discovered this community and fractals and I think this community is a breeding ground for great things at many scales. (Fractal great things)  :)
Code: [Select]
#include <complex>
#include <iostream>
using namespace std;int main(){for(int y=0;++y<22;){for(int
x=0;++x<60;){complex<float>z,c={3*(float)(x)/60-2,2.5// wes
*(float)(y)/22-1.25};int i=0;while(abs(z)<2&&++i<12)z=pow(z
,2)+c;cout<<(i<12?'.':'*');}cout<<'\n';}cout<<endl;}// 2017

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