Fractal image of the month - Discussion thread

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Offline Caleidoscope

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« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2018, 11:56:25 AM »
Tonight the voting for the  "Fractal Image Of the month july"  will close.
I would like to remind you all, and ask you all to vote  :yes:   

But, some have given a  :thumbs:  instead of a vote.   A thumb up, has beside a kind gesture no meaning for the competition.
So please, if you want your vote to count, change your  :thumbs:  to a real vote.




Offline pauldelbrot

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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2018, 06:18:29 AM »
Ditto.

That being said, an issue is becoming apparent with these events, which is that some voters aren't voting for every image. In this last one, some images got six or seven votes, if not more, and others as few as three.

If people show up to vote for their friend's image and vote just for that one image, then this devolves into a popularity contest, at least potentially, rather than the best fractal winning. People with more online followers have an advantage. So either voters should be encouraged to cast some vote on each and every image (except their own, if they entered one) if they vote for any at all, or else the average rather than sum of the votes should be used to avoid the results being biased by which images get more attention separately from their quality.

(Disclosure: I always vote on every image, excepting of course for my own.)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 12:48:28 PM by 3DickUlus, Reason: move to discussion topic requested by Caleidoscope »

Offline pauldelbrot

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« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2018, 06:37:51 AM »
A third possible remedy that only just occurred to me: count the votes on each image, and then for each image count only the top n votes where n is the number of votes of the image with the fewest votes. So if that image had five votes, and another had eight, and the latter were three bronzes, three silvers, and two golds, that one's bronzes don't count.

But my preference would be for averaging, especially because even if every voter votes for every image not their own, unequal vote counts can still result if some, but not all, people who submitted images vote. (Nonvoting image submitters' images will each get one extra vote in that case.) Or I suppose we could discourage people from submitting images but not voting...

Easier to control algorithms than influence people's behavior, and thorny to decide what if anything to do if someone looks at and votes for only one image despite a stated preference against that. Hence my preference for averaging.

(And in case there's any doubt that the images themselves receive varying amounts of attention, rather than some people examining every image but using no vote as a zero vote while nobody votes without examining every image, look at the view counts. The images vary by nearly a factor of two in their view counts, and the view counts do seem to correlate with the vote counts. Some voters do indeed seem to zero in on a particular image, maybe also hit the immediately adjacent ones that happened to be visible at the same time, but ignore the rest completely. I can only imagine how much worse that would get if these events became popular enough to cause the threads to paginate.)

Offline gerrit

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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2018, 05:23:48 AM »
I just select the best 3 and give them 3,2,1. (And I don't vote for myself... ???)
Not that it matters, but someone managed to reach 2nd place by voting for itself... >:D
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 05:36:54 AM by gerrit »

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2018, 06:47:48 AM »
What's the criteria for a bronze/silver/gold vote? Who decides what that might be? ?Why can't you just play nice?

Imagination, creativity, originality, lighting, color choice/mix, intellectual interpretation, amount of post processing... etc.

If you guys are going to try to impose any rules other than those set out by the moderator responsible for managing this "project" then you are going to ruin it for everyone.

This is supposed to be a bit of fun to encourage participation, an exercise in creativity. Some of this months images are just not up to the level of genius I've seen in the past, not really trying.

I'll not have you or anyone else tell me how to vote or why I should vote on something, if someone has "followers" they are probably a reasonably creative artist that produces good material, all the power to them! If someone votes for their own image it's probably because the rest were disappointing.

Oh, I don't see anyone complaining that some votes were cast before the "official" voting started, possibly biasing future votes, blah, blah, blah...

We all win if, at the end of the year, the calendar is captivating and imaginative.
We all loose if a few people make it a negative experience for others.

So, submit an image, cast your votes, accept the results and prepare for the next one.

Resistance is fertile... you will be illuminated!

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fractals/fragmentarium

Offline Caleidoscope

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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2018, 11:39:26 AM »
Too bad that every time there is a contest there is 'trouble'  The same on the old forum and now on the new FF.  It is a nice idea but can only be a succes if everybody keeps it on the level it is intended, to have a friendly contest, a bit of fun.  It is not very important, you can't win huge price money or a new car... it is just a calendar and there are dozens of chances to be on the calendar, with what you consider to be your best, creative and original fractal in either first, second or third place....!

The voting period has been changed from a 14 day period to the entire contest time. (changed in the early day, didn't think that would be a problem)  You can check the rules if you like. We did it because of vacations, to make it as easy as possible,  and because there is no reason to limit it to just 14 days.  You can always change your vote to the very last minute. So there is no risk that you don't get a fair chance.  I personally think it best to vote as late as possible, but that is up to anyone to make that choice. 

How anyone votes is also personal and not to anyone else to comment about that.  Choose what you think is the best, the most creative, the most surprising, the most unique and appealing ... the one you think deserves to win.   

We had the same discussion on the old forum about vote for every picture... or just the top 3...
We didn't get a solution than, and not now I'm afraid.  You can't force people to vote for every entry.  I do agree that voting for every entry can chance the outcome a lot.  So maybe it is something to think about, and to consider to uphold a gentlemen agreement to vote only the top 3?    Or just leave it as it is, free?

Don't forget, it is just for fun so don't make a big deal out of it. It would be too bad if we have to quit this initiative, because it is giving cause for anger and irritation.  :peace:  Let's keep it fractal, let's keep it nice!   ;)

Have a nice day, enjoy the summer if you can :)

 

Offline claude

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« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2018, 02:58:08 PM »
I tried to vote for myself but got a message saying "you can't rate your own posts" or similar.

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2018, 04:14:15 AM »
Taojoe won this round :thumbs: g'd on ya mate!
I can't wait to see what's next, I'm hoping the pics get better and better.

Offline gerrit

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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2018, 05:03:57 AM »
Taojoe won this round :thumbs: g'd on ya mate!
I can't wait to see what's next, I'm hoping the pics get better and better.
Do you have to be administrator to be able to vote for yourself?

Not trying to be nasty, but to get people to participate and put in an effort a certain level of seriousness and fairness is required. Abusing administrator privilege by voting for yourself (as you did) does not contribute to that.

I think the whole idea of fractal competition is silly, like voting for "the best food", but I participate anyways as a member of this community and I like some of the pictures that would otherwise not be put out here, so it's a good thing. Please take this as a sincere effort to improve things, and not as a personal attack.

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2018, 05:42:34 AM »
I would just like to see a calendar with images that represent the community and are pleasing to look at for an entire month.
I had no idea that I could vote for myself until I clicked the button and then it was too late, no undo button.

I could fix it so that nobody can see how anyone else voted (as it should be) except the moderators and admins, that would also be in effect for ALL "votes",  "likes" and "rates" on everything everywhere, so the only thing a user would know is that somebody rated something they posted but never who did it.

That would require some work on my part and because my time is being donated for free I don't think I will be putting any effort into that. My life has turned upside down right now and I can't even find the time to explore fractals or tinker with code so all of the images that I post in this project will be things I have already rendered, a little boring but at least I'm participating with, what I feel, is the best of my many many renderings.


Offline gerrit

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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2018, 06:45:06 AM »
No "fix" is needed, just don't vote for yourself.   :peace:

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2018, 07:14:53 AM »
Can I vote one bronze, one gold and the rest silver ??? Of course I can! Can I vote all bronze ??? Of course I can! Can I vote for myself ???

Well, it turns out that I can, but it doesn't mean that I get first place, as was clearly demonstrated.

and that statement...
No "fix" is needed, just don't vote for yourself.   :peace:
...sounds like you do want to dictate rules. I'm thinking the "fix" is needed just so you have one less thing to complain about, I will meditate on the source and if inspired further I will find the time to make it so. Secret ballot is the only way to ensure no more complaints, then you will just have to accept the results never knowing who voted or how they voted.

Offline gerrit

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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2018, 08:05:00 AM »
Can I vote one bronze, one gold and the rest silver ??? Of course I can! Can I vote all bronze ??? Of course I can! Can I vote for myself ???

Well, it turns out that I can, but it doesn't mean that I get first place, as was clearly demonstrated.

and that statement......sounds like you do want to dictate rules. I'm thinking the "fix" is needed just so you have one less thing to complain about, I will meditate on the source and if inspired further I will find the time to make it so. Secret ballot is the only way to ensure no more complaints, then you will just have to accept the results never knowing who voted or how they voted.
Yes, I propose to "dictate" the rule that no-one can vote for themselves. As this common sense rule seems to be enforced in software already for ordinary users, it apparently needs to be specifically "dictated" to administrators.

Secret voting, so we won't discover you are voting for yourself, would probably also remove complaints about administrators voting for themselves.

I don't think I need to argue the disadvantages of that approach.

Not sure why you take this hostile attitude, I don't see anything I wrote that could justify it.

Offline 3DickUlus

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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2018, 08:19:00 AM »
It's 36 C in my apartment, maybe I'm a little crabby, none the less, a secret ballot would be to eliminate complaints, I don't care if you think I should not vote for myself. If I ran for Mayor of Vancouver I would vote for myself because then I would be guaranteed to get at least one vote.

Offline gerrit

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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2018, 08:26:39 AM »
It's 36 C in my apartment, maybe I'm a little crabby, none the less, a secret ballot would be to eliminate complaints, I don't care if you think I should not vote for myself. If I ran for Mayor of Vancouver I would vote for myself because then I would be guaranteed to get at least one vote.
I don't find this acceptable.