Thoughts on the gallery

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Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2017, 12:50:29 PM »
changing the board where it is automatically posted changes nothing.
(it is a (lousy) workaround for the prefix thing - but this is a different discussion)
the threads will still 'spam' the unread/recent posts and recent topics.

The cause and effect: Of course it is never easy to see the connection between cause and effect.
But you are going a bit far by comparing my point to katrina being gods wrath.  ::)

We should look out for things that could cause lack of comments/views.
And from the data we have and some logic thinking, this is a potential candidate.
-we have MANY image posts, far more than 50%. many are automated.
-only few people actually watch these posts. even fewer comment on them.
-Talking from my own perception: I like seeing good images. but I don't like being bombarded with them. If there are too many at a time, I don't bother looking at any single one. (though I will always open an image-thread like mr.alexx, because I know it will be good)


As with previous arguments - your main argument is "it has always been this way". And that is not a valid argument.
If this:
The threads are just a bonus to keep things even more visible - but threads need to be opened one at a time to see the thumbnails, and even then it's all one person at a time.
Then I don't see why it is soo important to keep that "bonus". Why not just try to deactivate the automatic posting and see how it goes?
Especially after I pointed out the downside of this.
Also: the threads look bad. tiny thumbnail or huge filesize with horizontal scrollbars.
bad design - This is not how ART should be displayed as automatic default.
If you see fractalforums as mainly a place for art, this should bother you even more.

(don't run an do this now rightaway if you are ok with trying that. this needs public explanation and shouldn't be rushed)

Offline claude

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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2017, 02:11:41 PM »
https://fractalforums.org/gallery/?sa=listall;type=recent

That view so much nicer than seeing thumbnails in Recent Posts, and infinitely better than seeing thread titles in Recent Topics.  Adding a link to Recent Pictures to the menu bar would be really handy.

I also think it's better to have all the commentary in one place, ideally on the gallery image, because there is no link from gallery image to forum thread as far as i can tell (the thread links to the gallery).  Maybe the gallery comments system could be improved to make it more forum-like? There could do with a way to have gallery comments show up in the Recent views etc, I guess that is something else to consider - comments on images are nice but if you can't follow updates easily it becomes a pain for any discussions that are sparked by images...

Personally I'd be happy for the automatic forum threads to go away, and start threads manually for extended discussions where comments are not good enough.  But I don't have super strong feelings either way.

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2017, 02:22:52 PM »
Thanks for your input!

Adding a link to recent pictures to the menu bar should be easy and sounds like a good idea!
(do you use dilber or yorky theme?)

Offline claude

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« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2017, 02:52:39 PM »
(do you use dilber or yorky theme?)

I use yorky theme.

Offline Sockratease

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« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2017, 06:15:39 PM »
changing the board where it is automatically posted changes nothing.
(it is a (lousy) workaround for the prefix thing - but this is a different discussion)
the threads will still 'spam' the unread/recent posts and recent topics.

The cause and effect: Of course it is never easy to see the connection between cause and effect.
But you are going a bit far by comparing my point to katrina being gods wrath.  ::)

We should look out for things that could cause lack of comments/views.
And from the data we have and some logic thinking, this is a potential candidate.
-we have MANY image posts, far more than 50%. many are automated.
-only few people actually watch these posts. even fewer comment on them.
-Talking from my own perception: I like seeing good images. but I don't like being bombarded with them. If there are too many at a time, I don't bother looking at any single one. (though I will always open an image-thread like mr.alexx, because I know it will be good)


As with previous arguments - your main argument is "it has always been this way". And that is not a valid argument.
If this:Then I don't see why it is soo important to keep that "bonus". Why not just try to deactivate the automatic posting and see how it goes?
Especially after I pointed out the downside of this.
Also: the threads look bad. tiny thumbnail or huge filesize with horizontal scrollbars.
bad design - This is not how ART should be displayed as automatic default.
If you see fractalforums as mainly a place for art, this should bother you even more.

(don't run an do this now rightaway if you are ok with trying that. this needs public explanation and shouldn't be rushed)

I see the extra board as a wonderful work around and a way of testing the waters without losing anything.

I view turning off the threads as a valid test, but not one that should be run first.

And I never said "it has always been this way" - I don't know where you get that from.

This is the position I take against streamlining the boards and removing sections.  I believe it's better to have more than less.

We will always disagree on that and just have to compromise wherever we can.

As for the oversized image vs undersized thumbnail - I like the oversized image and think that is the way it should go, but we can compromise on that too.  We could make larger thumbnails.  I could try 500 x 500  (or even 700 x 700) and regenerate them all for the entire gallery.  That would solve the too small thumbnail issue.

I also think it's better to have all the commentary in one place, ideally on the gallery image, because there is no link from gallery image to forum thread as far as i can tell (the thread links to the gallery). 

Another idea that somehow crept it's way into many forums is that drifting off topic or having a discussion spill over into another thread is somehow bad.

In a site dedicated to Chaos and finding order therein, I find that to be something I'll never understand.

Again - more is better!

Thanks for your input!

Adding a link to recent pictures to the menu bar should be easy and sounds like a good idea!

That is not a bad idea at all.

See - we can agree on some things!

But overall, I just don't see the problem at all.

I do not see the threads as spam.  I think people will reply to threads if they want to reply and nothing related to this discussion has any bearing on that in the least.

I have no problems letting discussions happen in multiple places because of the way people use the site - many ignore threads, and many ignore the gallery.  This puts content in front of both groups.  That is the best possible arrangement in my view and I doubt my position will ever change on that - I always go for the broadest possible way to present stuff.
Study stupidity, kids. It's not getting smarter out there - Frank Zappa

Offline Sockratease

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« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2017, 06:20:30 PM »
Moved this to Discuss Fractal Forums in an effort to get more people involved in the conversation!

Offline Sabine62

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« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2017, 09:38:29 PM »
As far as I am concerned art is not the main feature of this site. That should be discussion and development of theory, and its practical application ( f.i. visualisation through programming  ;D etc) and the artsy stuff is really a nice(!) by-product. And I am saying this as someone who loves to fool around with renders (though I am having a bit of problems calling them 'art' as they are more lucky finds than anything else) and hasn't got a clue what 80% of the fractal theory discussed on FF is all about :} (though I'd really Really love to understand more of it, and that is basically why I love FF so much: The wealth of knowledge and documentation ). So rather no cluttering of the main board with lots and lots of messages about new art... I would prefer a separate section on the front page dedicated to new gallery items, if that is possible, but no new thread for each galley item.

I never understood why there would be a thread for art that already sits in the gallery. At least for some of the gallery items that had a gallery of their own like the Mandelbulb3D gallery. Correct me if I am wrong but Fragmentarium didn't have its own gallery? What I found Really annoying in the gallery on V1 is that the notification didn't work correctly, not by mail and not with 'replies to your posts', while it worked perfectly for the threads. I have have very often found out  only weeks later that someone left a comment or answer... If that can be mended I am happy with only the gallery and without the threads.

Being able to post small pictures in threads: please please do not disable that! Very often when discussing problems with a new raytracer or formulas it is vital to be able to show certain nice or erroneous(!) behaviour as a image. And you really do not want those images clutter your gallery  :))
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 09:53:17 PM by Sabine62 »
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Offline Sockratease

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« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2017, 10:30:21 PM »
As far as I am concerned art is not the main feature of this site.

Yes, we have 3 main schools of thought here, and we try to accommodate all of them.  Some are here for the Math and Theory side of things, some are here to meet with other Programmers or learn programming, and some  (like me!) find the Pretty Pictures to be the main reason to be here.

A big part of this beta test period is trying to find a way to please all 3 of these points of view.

So rather no cluttering of the main board with lots and lots of messages about new art... I would prefer a separate section on the front page dedicated to new gallery items, if that is possible, but no new thread for each galley item.

But what about those who make a new thread for every image they want to upload and bypass the gallery all together?  It amounts to the same thing, the make a thread for every image they post, just as does the gallery.  But they don't clutter the main board as that is showing all categories - they only clutter the Image area  (Fractal Art).  Unless we have different definitions of what "The Main Page" is...

I never understood why there would be a thread for art that already sits in the gallery. At least for some of the gallery items that had a gallery of their own like the Mandelbulb3D gallery.

Again, that is because we have users who prefer the gallery and users who only look at threads.  It's that effort to get the material before everyone rather than just split us up into little "cliques" who only see the same stuff.

Correct me if I am wrong but Fragmentarium didn't have its own gallery? What I found Really annoying in the gallery on V1 is that the notification didn't work correctly, not by mail and not with 'replies to your posts', while it worked perfectly for the threads. I have have very often found out  only weeks later that someone left a comment or answer... If that can be mended I am happy with only the gallery and without the threads.

Fragmentarium has had it's own gallery here since we started: https://fractalforums.org/gallery/?cat=20  And the old site always had one too  http://www.fractalforums.com/index.php?action=gallery;cat=61  Over 150 images in there on the old site!

As far as I know the notifications work as intended - they send emails though, it's not an on-site notification.

And when you say happy with only the gallery and without the threads, does that mean to stop making unique threads for images when uploading, or to continue with the split of the community and have some people post threads and some post in the gallery?

Being able to post small pictures in threads: please please do not disable that! Very often when discussing problems with a new raytracer or formulas it is vital to be able to show certain nice or erroneous(!) behaviour as a image. And you really do not want those images clutter your gallery  :))

We have always had enough of an attachment allowance for screenshots and small explanatory images on both the V1 site and here.  The change came about when it was decided to use threads and attachments to post large images.  That is what I oppose for all the stated reasons.  Large attachments are something every forum I have ever been involved with has avoided and called dangerous because they can be used to spread malicious stuff - but even I must admit I have never seen it happen  (possibly because no site allows that!). If explanatory images are wanted in a thread there is no gallery clutter if you use your personal "User Gallery" - those do not create threads, so they wont clutter the forum either.

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2017, 01:43:59 PM »
Thanks for your input Sabine!


But what about those who make a new thread for every image they want to upload and bypass the gallery all together?  It amounts to the same thing, the make a thread for every image they post, just as does the gallery.  But they don't clutter the main board as that is showing all categories - they only clutter the Image area  (Fractal Art).  Unless we have different definitions of what "The Main Page" is...
What about those? What users decide to do has little to do with my problem of setting up an automatic default to start threads for every image.
Deactivating the default will decrease the amoint of "noise". That's all.
I don't see what you are trying to say with the cluttering of different boards is all about.
If any user really overdoes with posting images in threads, that's what we have moderators and common sense for.


Again, that is because we have users who prefer the gallery and users who only look at threads.  It's that effort to get the material before everyone rather than just split us up into little "cliques" who only see the same stuff.
And when you say happy with only the gallery and without the threads, does that mean to stop making unique threads for images when uploading, or to continue with the split of the community and have some people post threads and some post in the gallery?
Forcing unwanted content on people not interested is not splitting up in cliques.
This is all about disabling automatic posting, not about banning images from the forum. Au contraire - images should be presented as good as possible and not drown.
Your really miss my point.

Actually, your insisting on using an 'external' gallery, that is located elsewhere instead of in the forum is what is splitting things in the first place. Now we suddenly have the images in two locations, splitting comments and visibility to different places, causing confusion - as claude pointed out.

Let's find out if the alternative gallery does this better.


We have always had enough of an attachment allowance for screenshots and small explanatory images on both the V1 site and here.  The change came about when it was decided to use threads and attachments to post large images.  That is what I oppose for all the stated reasons.  Large attachments are something every forum I have ever been involved with has avoided and called dangerous because they can be used to spread malicious stuff - but even I must admit I have never seen it happen  (possibly because no site allows that!). If explanatory images are wanted in a thread there is no gallery clutter if you use your personal "User Gallery" - those do not create threads, so they wont clutter the forum either.
There is no more harm in posting images as attachement than in posting them in the gallery. It's the same files. Nothing malicious in images. And if so, the first thing we would have to get rid of is external hosting, because these are beyond our control and aren't scanned by the hosting company for malicious code. But that's a normal risk you face everywhere online, so not really our responsibility.
This sounds too much like fear mongering without proper reasons besides: "but all others jump off that cliff because this is how it has always been".

Of course  explanatory images are wanted and should be as easy to post as possible.
Having to go through the gallery upload, appearing in your art-gallery.. that's far from easy.
just use drag&drop upload. done.


My suggestion is to just keep the user galleries and replace the public program categories with prefixes in the user gallery.
Users would have to post their best images manually, adding a prefix so it can be filtered in the art/image section.

-Same functionality (program sections through prefixes)
-less clutter/noise
-more flexibility for users.
-by using the bbcode from the gallery images, the image-size should be optimal, not tiny thumbnails or huge filesize fullviews with vertical scrollbar.


The alternative Gallery from smfpacks we are about to test allows users to create as many sub-galleries in their user gallery as they want. As requested here
It integrates well with the prefixes.

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2017, 02:10:00 PM »
ok, how about this:

We all are familiar with the old solution as Sockratease prefers it.

Now let's use beta to find out if/how well my suggestion work.

We need to see this in action, work with it a few days/weeks to be able to decide.

Give me 2-3 weeks, sock. Then let's ask the users which way they prefer and stick with that.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:09:39 PM by Frank Fraktalist »

Offline Sockratease

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« Reply #40 on: September 14, 2017, 10:49:00 AM »
Real life keeps me distracted still...

But sure - try out the other gallery with whatever settings you like.

I'm not sure running the converter is a good idea unless it can be undone should we choose go back though.  Maybe install it in a directory named "galleries" instead of "gallery" and then we can have them both to compare?  Even disable one from posting while testing the other?

Or just let it go, run the converter, and hope it can be restored if we choose to do so?  It is just the testing period after all.

But whatever.  I don't think it's necessary or even a good use of our resources, but the money end is not my department so do whatever you want to try and we'll see how it goes...

Offline Fraktalist

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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2017, 02:00:27 PM »
ok, bought both.
As soon as I find enough time I will first install the SEO-Mod and test it.
If that runs smooth, I'll make a full backup again and test setting up the gallery. And informing everyone that images uploaded from then on might be lost if we revert the changes.

It is necessary to know our options. And the resources will only be spent if we actually decide to use the new plugins.

Offline Sockratease

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« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2017, 02:03:53 PM »
OK - we'll see how it goes!

And an afterthought about the threads spamming the forum - maybe going back to limiting the posts in the gallery to 1 or 2 instead of it's current limit of 10?

I started at 1, but with so few members, it was raised.

Just another way to mitigate things without losing the way (I feel) it should function.

Not an argument against trying out the other gallery, just a thought which occurred to me later than it should have...

Offline claude

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« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2017, 06:57:16 PM »
I find the threads more ergonomic for extended discussion because of the temporal ordering (comments are displayed in reverse).
Also the threads link to the gallery, but I really think if threads are to be created automatically, the gallery should link to those threads too.  I just had to add a manual link back to the thread for the comments here to make sense: https://fractalforums.org/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=61

Offline Anon

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« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2017, 07:42:59 PM »
I find the threads more ergonomic for extended discussion because of the temporal ordering (comments are displayed in reverse).
Also the threads link to the gallery, but I really think if threads are to be created automatically, the gallery should link to those threads too.  I just had to add a manual link back to the thread for the comments here to make sense:

Gallery comment order can be changed by an Admin (but it changes for all members).

View Topic will take you to the forum thread.

FYI:Forum can be set to latest post on top if desired.

See attached...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 09:21:12 PM by Anon »


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